New Honda Africa Twin? For Real? (Italian Translator wanted!)

[Two Plugs]

I don´t think that there will be a new Africa Twin or Vara in the next few years.
At our german Varadero meeting 3 weeks ago, were some guys from Honda Europe and from Japan, they discussed with some Vara drivers and listenend to the questions and remarks and looked at the Varaderos in front of the Hotel, took a lot of pictures.
But there was no "OK, wait a while and then we will ..."! The only gift was a study-print out of 1998 given to those who wanted to have a copy:

They have been around, those Honda guys... Same print was given to all VCIM participants in Wales...  Same group. 

[Athanman]

Just curios what the Honda delegation at VIM#15 said??

They asked a lot of questions.

They listened a lot.

They said very little other than "they were disappointed the crosstourer was not selling well".

It was an expectable fact .... sorry but Honda has misunderstand several things the last 3 years, it was obviously their choice to pretend that they were deaf .Stewart im sure that you remember the LOUD voices in our past forum ,they were  shouting to Honda ,and for me honestly the new KTM 1190 or perhaps the new Triumph 1200 will be more preferable than the CT. The CT is obvious that it can not replace our Varadero.

PS:I was wondering why Honda didnt came earlier to ask us or even better to make a contest in order to see how the globe Varadero community imagines the Varadero replacement?They were not curious about our opinion ,our preferences,our likes and dislikes from a future moto. Sorry but its a song called '' its too late for love ''. 

[varakurt]

I think the CT shouldn't replace the Varadero as the Varadero shouldtn't replace the AT ... so we need a new Bike from Honda to continue the Line of the AT.

BTW ... i don't need the CT, the 1190 KTM ADV or the 1200 Explorer ... i don't need a bike with far more than 250 kg an more than 130 PS ... I need a bike with 200-220 kg an 80-90 PS ... 21"/18" wheels and so on, and so on ... in fact an new AT!

[Skye]

What is the figures for the Crosstourer. How many been sold during first year?

[Two Plugs]

Kurt... as you know, I was invited at the official press launce of the CT in Catalonia, early 2012. At the presentation Honda made very, very clear that the CT is mend to replace both the Varadero and the ST1300 Pan European (which is still available, strangely enough...  )

Have to second Manos (Athanman) his posting. This community held a Varadero Inquiry as early as 1999. The outcome of this enquiry was shared with Honda. Honda participated with a large R&D team at our meeting in Sicily (2006) and Hungary (2008).

The results... are obviously for every one... Unfortunately.
Regarding sales figures of the Crosstourer... I don't know. The only thing I know is that the only new Crosstourers and VFR1200's I see on the road, are dealer's demobikes.
And Mikadero and Sebastian's CT's at this years VCIM... 

... Where I see new Tiger 1200 Explorers, the new KTM1190 and even the new R1200GS on almost every street corner.

What you don't see, won't sell. Despite the qualities of the product.

[SB]

Regarding sales figures of the Crosstourer... I don't know. The only thing I know is that the only new Crosstourers and VFR1200's I see on the road, are dealer's demobikes.
And Mikadero and Sebastian's CT's at this years VCIM... 

I think there might be another one somwhere in Tel-Aviv 

[varakurt]

Honda participated with a large R&D team at our meeting in Sicily (2006) and Hungary (2008).

At Sicily i was part of the meeting ... and i think it was a great mistake from Honda to send their people to the varadero community. The better way had been to send their team to a meeting of Africa Twin Drivers like the International Africa Twin Treffen (Meeting) at the Lissburg in Germany.

There would have get the engineers of Honda the right ideas ... 

The development of the Varadero with its 13 years of production is a wrong track with a dead end comparatively to the 25 years of production and success of a TransAlp or an Africa Twin ...

[Two Plugs]

Despite my 'love' for the Big Dero, I think you are right, Kurt.

But... being in production for almost 18 years (Africa Twin) without any evolution doesn't provide a good prosperous future either (Africa Twin).
The Africa Twin stood still since the 650 was replaced for the 750 and some minor technical upgrades (which wasn't a real evolution, but only a minor modification).
For the Transalp you can at least say its engine did evolve on some level... (note... the question if that evolution was on the right evolutionary track is a total different one!)

To my modest opinion, the XL1000V Varadero is (still) the most underrated Honda big trail bike ever, where the Africa Twin is the most overrated.
It should have been Honda though, to build a bike which would be able to make a firm combination of the strengths of both bikes in a whole new concept.
Call the new bike 'Grand Transalp' or 'Africa Twin Raider', what ever.

Despite its qualities it has been always extremely overpriced (when the Varadero was introduced in 1998 on the Dutch market, the difference between the XRV750 Africa Twin was only € 450,-!) and underpowered (only 10 Bhp more than the Transalp 600, torque of the Transalp 650 was just as good). In fact, Honda should have evolved the XLV750R (RD01) in stead. That bike was (and is) still a headturner, despite its vaults. It was only kept in production for (I believe) 2 / 3 years in the early 1980ties.

The Transalp had to wear the original frame without major upgrades from the very first 600 in 1986, till the last 700 in 2012! That isn't evolution. Species in nature disappear from the natural evolutionair scale as soon as their species can't keep up with the evolution. It's a natural process and unfortunately for Honda, the Transalp, Africa Twin but also the Varadero have become victims of that process.

I dare to predict that bikes like the VFR1200F and the 1200X Crosstourer will get extinct species within 5 years from now if nothing serious is changing at Honda's R&D...
Where bikes like the TDM and also the Vstrom 650 are still strong runners in their segments...

I never have understood why any manufacturer would name a motorcycle after a beach resort in Cuba. The names Africa Twin and Transalp where as clear as it could be.

Maybe this excellent quote at the Africa Twin topic on our collegue- Forum ADVrider.com explains it all... 

According to Honda - my RD07A was built at the Hamamatsu factory in Japan
I agree that the RD03 had the highest build quality - the way I explain it is:


RD03 - designed & built by mechanics
RD04 - designed & built by mechanics with advice from accountants
RD07 - designed by accountants & built by mechanics
RD07A - designed & built by accountants
That said - I still think the RD07A is the best all round Africa Twin (well I think mine is anyway  )

That's what our member Bogdan BC explained to the Honda guys at VCIM in Wales, last month... Stop scientist develop motorcycles (because they THINK what is good for us), start getting bikers develop them (because they KNOW what is good for us). 

[Varafox]

I never have understood why any manufacturer would name a motorcycle after a beach resort in Cuba.

They perhaps did it for the people who wanted to take a picture like this:

[JosepM]

I know, Bernard, you've got a couple like these


I wouldn't mind a bike with shaft, or metallic plate under engine...

But I never liked these colourful engines Honda used to build back then. 

I believe a modern bike would have 2 more disks and ABS and catalisator, which (as pointed in Kurt's linked thread) would add a significant number of kg...
Finally, after having some serious problems with cooling in previous bikes, I promised myself I would buy only radiator equipped ones. Add some more kg here.

Well, again as in the aforementioned thread, a new, modern AT (or XLV750) like bike would perhaps be just too heavy or expensive or both. Or maybe not, I must admit I don't know the specs or prices of Tigers or F800GSs 

Greetings,

Josep

[Athanman]

Im really enjoying reading your posts guys because sometimes we might have different opinions but concluding  we all agree that we are all in love with our naughty plump and purred Varadero. Like the whisky traditions ... the oldest flavors costs more and lasts more .

[varakurt]

Hello Josep

In accordance with the applicable and valid emission regulations in Europe (Euro 4 / Euro 5)  it won't be possible to build a bike without liquid cooling - and, it is state of the art - even BMuu has now developed a new Boxermotor with Liquidcooling. And the new 1200GS isn't heavier than the old Air/Oil-cooled GS. So, there aren't more kg on this argument.

ABS - the new Bosch ABS in the 1190 KTM ADV has a weight of 0,9 kg - not sooo much than the ABS in our Deros.

The Triumph Tiger 800X or the BMuu 800 GS (and the KTM 1190 ADV) have all this things ... 3 disks, Catalysator, Fuel Injection, ABS (the BMuu additional ASR, ESA), liquid cooling ... and the weight is below 220 kg!!!

[Two Plugs]

Josep... specially for you... 

They are available with less colourfull engines too! 





(Dirty and clean - this one is actually mine  )

And on specs... Did you know that that 'ancient' XLV750R was perhaps one of the heaviest big trail bike of its time (the GS80 was heavier!), but with near to 200 kg lighter than a modern day Transalp and over 30 kg (!) leighter than the Africa Twin!

[varakurt]

Do the XLV have a Double-Under Seat-Exhaust? Please can you post a Pic from the rear?

[Two Plugs]

It is more or less comparable with the exhaust of the XL1000V Varadero, Kurt. So, not 'really' an underseat muffler as you see these days at modern super sport bikes, but a double aligned on both sides as a mirror image.