Engine turn but not start.

[Tonyco]

Hello,
a very mysterious thing happened to me. In the garage I have Renault Espace 2.2 dCi, Honda Varadero XL1000VA and Piaggio Beverly 500. The Renault and the Honda when not driven (ridden) they are constantly connected to automatic chargers to keep batteries full, Piaggio is not connected as it is everyday bike.  Before 3 days I go to to garage and remove charger from the Renault and try to start the diesel common rail engine, it turns just fine but no signs of trying to start. I try around 10 times nothing. I lock and unlock the doors by the key and try again and suddenly engine starts up without a single problem. I put 600 km on the Renault and around 10 stars without single problem. Yesterday, I take Honda out of the garage in case to change the oil. I try to start the engine and the same thing happened like on the Renault, the engine turns but not a single sign of trying to start. I don't notice if the FI light goes of but everything seems to be normal. i notice that when turn the ignition on HISS light goes out.  I try more than 20 times nothing, check kill switch nothing. I disconnect the battery and wait for about 2 minutes  and than reconnect it again. I try to start again nothing. Start too look around the bike, fuel pump was working just fine. After few minutes I try again and notice that the bike trying to start, after few more turns it starts up. After that I change the oil, stop start many times without a single problem. I think it is not  a problem with HISS antenna, there is something that affect two different engines at the same time, diesel and petrol. There is electricity cut a few times during the stormy whether can be a reason for not fire up the engines ? The vehicles are connected to chargers in that way for a few years and not a single problem till now. It is very mysterious thing happened. I not ride the bike yet but I plan to ride it in Saturday.

[jackyork]

Because all modern vehicles are controlled by 'can-bus' systems, they can be temperamental to alien chargers. The handbook usually states not to connect chargers directly to battery terminals but use an 'earth' point on the chassis or engine. There is actually a designated bolt on the engine of Honda Accords.
I know you've had no problems before but that's the nature of computers.
This may not be the cause but the information is correct.

JK

[Tonyco]

Interesting point, I use this two chargers for about 2- 3 years without a single problem till now.  They are two different types of chargers for car and motorcycle. I never disconnect the battery during the charger is connected to the vehicle. What do you mean for the minus (-) should not be connected directly to the battery only plus (+) should be connected directly ? What is the difference if it is connected to the earthing point of the chassis or directly to the battery ?

[jackyork]

It's to do with the Can Bus. The computer 'senses' where power is coming and going. If the negative (-) is connected to the engine or chassis, the current is dissipated and the computer accepts it. More than that, somebody with more knowledge is required.
I still don't know if that is the cause; it's just how modern systems are.

JK

[SB]

It's to do with the Can Bus. The computer 'senses' where power is coming and going. If the negative (-) is connected to the engine or chassis, the current is dissipated and the computer accepts it.
JK

Bullshit.

To be clear the Vara does not use CanBus.

Where CanBus is used it may be able to detect a voltage drop along a conductor with reasonable "length * Current ratio". The current from a permanently connected automatic charger will be minimal and the resistance of the negative/earth lead would be low enough to make detection of the charger extremely difficult.

The external +ve &-ve tags on modern vehicles are for high capacity charging or jump starting.

It's unlikely to be fuel as one was diesel the other petrol.

The chargers have been used for " a few years" without any previous problems.  Either both chargers have developed a fault or there is some other external influence or it is just coincidence.

[jackyork]

@SB I know you are an expert in this field but I assure you, in the Honda Civic Type 'R' handbook, it states the designated bolthead to which the - ive charger lead should be connected.
I have seen other handbooks stating NOT to connect direct to the battery terminals, as it will 'bugger up' the computer .My misapprehension of how this affects the computer may be 'bullshit' but I can only go on what I read.

JK

[Tonyco]

Hi,
I reconnect car and bike to the chargers in Monday, today Friday I try and two vehicles start without any single problem. On the Varadero I use Battery Tender Junior 400, it is an old charger with maximum 400 mA charging current, it is SMART charger, now on http://batterytender.com/  web site there is new version of Junior with maximum current 750 mA. My 400 mA version works perfect, but takes 3 days to switch to float voltage because Varadero Battery is too big. Otherwise works perfect. I change the battery of the motorcycle before 3 months with new YUASA original battery from local Honda dealer. The other thing is that I return from 6 000 km, 15 days  trip from Russia, left the bike in the garage connected to the charger for about 1 month, in Monday i decide to change the oil after a big trip and it cannot start. For the car with common rail diesel engine I try to start it in Friday before Monday that I have problems with Varadero. Diesel was driven during this 1 month of staying the bike in the garage. The car was not started for two weeks before the problem. There is a lot of thunderstorms last few months but I don't have a problem. There is a very big thunder storm and cut the power of half city for about 8 hours, I checked in the garage no problem with the chargers, after this hard thunderstorm I use Diesel car few times without single problem, but I am not try the motorcycle. After that there is a few power cuts again for about 1 - 2 hours. I have a lot of electronics connected, ask other people that leave near to the garage (exactly above the garage) they don't have any problems last two weeks with electronics at home. At the car I use charger that I bough from LIDL but it is SMART charger that can be switched to motorcycle battery charging with maximum current of 1,2 A or two car battery charging with 4 A max current, this charger also switch to bulk charge after the battery is full and maintain the voltage of the battery. I don't remember anything else that could happened. I use the same garage for my everyday bike Piaggio Beverly 500 '03 but I connected to the LIDL charger once a week and not a single problem.

[jackyork]

What is the drain that you need to be charging all the time?

JK

[Tonyco]

There is no drain, but I don't ride the bike often, I use it only outside of the city and I want to know that the battery is in good condition every time when I want to go for ride. The same situation with the car, I use it only outside of the city, inside we have small car. But till that moment I don't have any problem with this two vehicles. I ride the bike this weekend to Serbia and put 838 km without a single problem, starts like charm. I put it this morning on charger again because I will not ride it next 1 month and more.

[jackyork]

I understand. In that case, you say you use a Lidl float charger, I have had several of these and they are good but do fail. If none of our more technical members can offer a solution, the best way would be to change equipment around and try to find the problem by good old 'process of elimination' [or illumination].

JK

[Tonyco]

Till now I don't have problems with the car and motorbike but I will see after few months what will happened.

[Tonyco]

Hello,
I leave the bike connected to the charger for about one month, and I try yesterday to start it, it runs like charm. With the car also not a single problem, may be there was and electric shock some how. I don't have any correct exclamation about what happened. We will see what will happened after the winter period .

[jackyork]

Fingers crossed.

JK.