Honda Adventure Riders Forum
Honda XL1000V Varadero - The bike that started our community! => Mechanical => Topic started by: wagonweel on April 23, 2018, 07:28:56
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1000, 2008 model, efi, 54000kms, mostly hwy use and very low speed/rpm riding.
A few months ago the trouble started and I thought maybe I got a bad tank of fuel. It started having issues at lower speeds and edpecially coming to a stop, and would die at idle intermittently. When you tried to restart it sometimes itit will sound like a totally flat battery, but then try again and volia. The bike runs when initially started for the day then as it heats up it MAY start misfiring at anything below 3000rpmstart. But it seems to be getting worse and only when the bike is hot. Most of my riding is at low speed/very low revs (sporting events) and then 1-2hrs hwy riding back home. If it starts playing up it will continue after I get off the hwy (runs fine at 80+ kms/hr 3000+rpm).
Numerous refills, tank flush (x2), injector cleaner, service, k&n filter reoiled (x2), new plugs (twice), new battery. No idea what is going on and the honda dealer and 1other shop ( independant mechanic) have been unable to find the problem. Oh, and neither place cleaned the fuel filter just assumeds it was fixed each time as it takes a while before it starts playing up.
In traffic is a nightmare now as I have to keep the revs 3000rpm+ so it doesn't stall.
Is it:
-filter
-Blocked injector/s
-Fuel pump
-Some heat related problem?
That's about all I can thjnk of....any ideas would be most welcome as I love the bike and normally it's brilliant to ride.
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Early carb models had issues with the fuel pump but the efi models seem to have overcome this.
The fact that it changes with temperature tends to suggest a sensor problem (MAP, IAT, ECT, CAM, TP etc.).
I think we need a bit more information on you bike and the symptoms:
When you say " When you tried to restart it sometimes it will sound like a totally flat battery" do you mean it wont turn over or it turns over but wont fire ?
Does the bike have the O2 sensor fitted in the exhaust ?
When you turn on the ignition when the bike is acting up does the FI lamp come on as normal or does it flash ?
If the FI light flashes (indication of a fault code) please try to describe the sequence.
Thanks
SB
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The battery, you know when a battery is just about out of juice and all you can get out is about one turn of the engine, that slow ra ra then nothing ... it won't turn over. Leave it for a second and it will turn the engine over like normal.
Yes O2 sensor it still on the bike (original exhast)
I haven't noticed any flashing of the lamp after a engine stall. I normally don't turn the ignition off after the engine dies, I just restart
In relation to the codes, The Honda shop found no fault codes coming up, but it didn't play up for them either
When it is misfiring nothing on the dash lights up or instrumentation jump around (apart ftom the tachometer)
One other point, thinking about the fuel pump, what noise should the bike make on turning the ignition on? The reason I ask is that from memory just the initial whirring of the fuel pump. But I noticed (and recorded) a strange noise after the pump does it's thing. Best way to describe it as like radio static. Normal? Never noticed it before.
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Think it is a battery issue. Not charging enough and this will make a misbehaving ignition.
Can be Stator, rectifier issue but try changing battery and seller if the problem continues
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Think it is a battery issue. Not charging enough and this will make a misbehaving ignition.
Can be Stator, rectifier issue but try changing battery and seller if the problem continues
Battery was changed. Will get the stator and rectifier looked at and see what comes up. The weekend should make it play up again and can get it checked then and there
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We had also on the french forum some fuel pump problem on MK2/3; and it takes months to diagnose it ... if previous elements have no positive result, try this way ! VCIF_ok
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We had also on the french forum some fuel pump problem on MK2/3; and it takes months to diagnose it ... if previous elements have no positive result, try this way ! VCIF_ok
Yes I was wondering about that that possibility
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We had also on the french forum some fuel pump problem on MK2/3; and it takes months to diagnose it ... if previous elements have no positive result, try this way ! VCIF_ok
Yes I was wondering about that that possibility
I had one of the early injected models from 2008 and I had to replace the fuel pump.
The symptom was hesitation from the engine at about 4000rpm from time to time. It became worse and after a week or 2 (I drive every day) it died on me completely while driving before I had managed to make an appointment with my dealer.
In my case it was obvious it wat the fuel pump since it was malfunctioning.
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Fuel delivery problems normally get worse with higher RPM not better !
The battery, you know when a battery is just about out of juice and all you can get out is about one turn of the engine, that slow ra ra then nothing ... it won't turn over. Leave it for a second and it will turn the engine over like normal.
The problem with the starter would tend to suggest an electrical fault which would also tie in with the the engine struggling at low RPM (low voltage !). It's difficult to see why a battery would be dead one minute and then start with no problems a few seconds later !
If possible, before spending any more money I would try and find a way of measuring the voltage supply to the ECU at 2,000 and 4,000 RPM and with the engine warm when the problem occurs.
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Fuel delivery problems normally get worse with higher RPM not better !
The battery, you know when a battery is just about out of juice and all you can get out is about one turn of the engine, that slow ra ra then nothing ... it won't turn over. Leave it for a second and it will turn the engine over like normal.
The problem with the starter would tend to suggest an electrical fault which would also tie in with the the engine struggling at low RPM (low voltage !). It's difficult to see why a battery would be dead one minute and then start with no problems a few seconds later !
If possible, before spending any more money I would try and find a way of measuring the voltage supply to the ECU at 2,000 and 4,000 RPM and with the engine warm when the problem occurs.
The ra ra nothing when starting was the initial symptom. And something I forgot to mention when it would do this with the old battery it would reset the clock and trip meters
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when it would do this with the old battery it would reset the clock and trip meters
That's normally just a sign of a weak battery and the system voltage dropping too low when you try to start the bike.
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when it would do this with the old battery it would reset the clock and trip meters
That's normally just a sign of a weak battery and the system voltage dropping too low when you try to start the bike.
Thanks. I have mentioned all this to the honda workshop but they just worked on the fueling.
I'll check the battery voltage with ignition off, on and then with the engine running and post the details.
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Try to measure the stator cables (yellow) should be a value between 2-4 ohms. It could also be a shortcut in this wire. If this occurs you not get enough wattage from stator and only getting 2/3 of full effect.
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Try to measure the stator cables (yellow) should be a value between 2-4 ohms. It could also be a shortcut in this wire. If this occurs you not get enough wattage from stator and only getting 2/3 of full effect.
Will try to check that too. Just as soin as I replace my dead multimeter (great timing 🤐)
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Temporarily mounting something like this might tell you a lot ?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/XCSOURCE-Motorcycle-Waterproof-Digital-Voltmeter/dp/B01NAK5ENF
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Temporarily mounting something like this might tell you a lot ?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/XCSOURCE-Motorcycle-Waterproof-Digital-Voltmeter/dp/B01NAK5ENF
Looks like a good option to continue to use occasionally after this issue is fixed!
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Ok, had a chance to do a test on the battery and this is the result:
Ignition off 12.9v
On 12.5
Starting dropped to 10.68 before recovering
Running 13.7 then once revs drop to idle 13.69
13.7 @ 3000rpm
After 10 mins idling 13.67
Fan cuts in 13.42
Fan off 13.57
Fan on 13.41
Off 13.55
On 13.40/38
Off 13.55/4
All up about 20mins idling.
Also, as an Australian model the headlights cannot be switched off (can umplug but illegal to ride like that)
Should have some time to check the other things mentioned(stator, rectifier readings) over the next few days.
Thanks again for all the responses
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The readings suggest that the battery and charging system are working correctly but it would still be interesting to know what the voltage reading are when the problem occurs.
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My money would be on the rectifier. Intermittent misfiring suggests the alternator putting AC into the system, especially when the rectifier gets hot.
A typical sign would be a cooked battery making you think the battery is at fault. Check battery electrolyte to see if its been boiling.
Its worth checking the rectifier connector block which may be corroded causing a high resistance.
Gareth.
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My money would be on the rectifier. Intermittent misfiring suggests the alternator putting AC into the system, especially when the rectifier gets hot.
A typical sign would be a cooked battery making you think the battery is at fault. Check battery electrolyte to see if its been boiling.
Its worth checking the rectifier connector block which may be corroded causing a high resistance.
Gareth.
Was running a voltmeter off the battery and charge stayed the same when it started to play up. The connecyor block looks fine
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Ok, so the voltage stays between 13.6/7 and even when it starts to misfire/die.
What I have now noticed (didn't have my earplugs in) was there was that buzzing/radio static type noise whenever the bike stared to misfire. That is the same noise made after the ignition is turned on and thethe fuel pump does it's initial prime. Further, after I parked it the last time, when I turned tge ignition on tge fuel pump made that buzzing/static type noise only ... not the priming noise. So, I am thinking either the fuel pumo is on the way out, or there is a blockage and the pump is struggling or both.
Again, when the bike is hot, low speeds with lots of stop/starting and it first showed up after a tight turn and then quick stop.
Leaning towards fuel starvation?
It has been a long spell of hot weather here. Apart from 2 days ago, there hasn't been one ride since early August below 30°C with many 38-40+. Hard on electronics but also rubber piping I guess
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It should be fairly easy to do a fuel pressure check-up. Since your electric system is perfectly OK, the fuel pump is the only possible culprit. Stop changing parts like crazy.... :)
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Here is the latest.
I had a fuel pressure test done and told it was good/fine. However, the bike was running normally at the time.
The mechanic fitted a small light so I could see if the power to the fuel pump was cutting in/out when the issue occurs.
He also said the valve/flap (see part #3 https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-5696-13MBT3S1-XL1000V5-2005-F__1900-XL+1000+VARADERO.html ) isn't opening as it should around 5000rpm and put a small bypass for me to try when the misfire starts. Could this possibly point to an issue with the ecu?
Anyway, a few things I have noticed:
-After I park when it has been playing up it stinks of fuel/petrol. :(
-Also the last time it started it's nonsense I wasn't wearing my earplugs and could hear the fuel pump making a strange buzzing sound as the engine was hunting/trying to stall. This is the same noise it makes when the ignition is turned on right after the pump primes (sometime at the same time) but only after/when the bike has been playing up.
Next stop I'll have the fuel pump removed (nope the first thing I thought the mechanics would do) and check the contact points .... perhaps that buzzin/static sound that coincides with the misfiring is the contact points for the pump? ???
We finally have lower temperatures here and the bike ran fine on an hour and half hwy run with a short section of slow moving traffic. Fingers crossed I can nurse it for the next 3 days as I'm relying on it at a big event. After that back to the shop again.
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There have been very few problems reported with the FI fuel pump so I'm not sure how it works.
The Honda manual says the pump output pressure should be between 320-370 kPa (46-53 psi) so it's clearly different from the Carb model and I don't think it has contacts and works the same way !
Looking at your most recent description of the symptoms I'm beginning to wonder if the problem is the fuel pump supplying too much pressure (not switching off) when the engine gets warm.
This could cause the engine to run rich and cause the stalling, smell of fuel and buzzing noise.
The Honda manual contradicts itself re the wiring of the "Fuel cut off relay". The fuel system section shows this simply being driven by the "bank angle sensor" but the wiring diagram section shows the "Fuel cut off relay" driven by the ECU so it may be that there are no contacts in the fuel pump and the ECU controls it.
The next time the problem occurs leave the engine running, pop off the seat and remove the fuel cut off relay. The pump should stop and there should be enough residual pressure in the system to allow the engine to continue running for a short time. As the pressure decays the engine should start running normally again before eventually stopping as the pressure drops below 320 kPA (46 psi.)
If this works it could indicate a faulty ECU or a faulty sensor (MAP, TP ?? ). If there is a faulty sensor or ECU I would expect to see a fault code displayed by the MIL blinking when the ignition is turned on.
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Ok, more confused now 😀
I will try to find the fuel cutoff relay mentioned next time it plays up.... see what happens and report back.
The latest is bike didn't want to start, eventually did but stopped then ran rough just like when playing up, butbut it has never done this from startup before. I was reading on another forum the exact same symptoms (rough running, stalling, fuel pump making a buzzing sound a few seconds into priming and smelling really petroly when you stop) and their fix was a fuel pressure regulator replacement (different bike). I was wondering if there is a fuel pressure regulator that is supplying too much fuel (when playing up) but this wouldn't be noticed as much at higher rpm as it would be using more.
It does seem to backfire on deceleration lower revs.
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I think it's clear that your problem is caused by incorrect fuel supply.
It's not clear to me what is most likely to be causing that as I don't know how the fuel pump is controlled. There is no separate fuel pressure regulator but there may be one within the fuel pump.
Your problem could be the fuel pump or it could be a problem with the map or throttle position sensor (or even the ECU).
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Again, my bet is on the fuel pump. There are NO points that wear out or other relays, only a small (kind of) filter and the pressure regulator is integrated in the pump.
Taking the pump assembly apart is something you could do by yourself. The pump inside is easy to replace, look for a model SIDAT 70077 or BOSCH 79106.
The fact that it runs well sometimes basically eliminates all parts but the fuel supply. And the noise of the fuel pump is quite clear about the problem. There should be a slight buzz for 2-3 second when you turn the key, then the pump stops and later is impossible to hear because of the (awful) engine noise.
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thats an interesting problem.
i suspect the rectifier but any updates from the owner ?
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I have one permanently mounted. Always have. You know before you even throw a leg over whether or not it's going to start.
But back to the intermittent running. I'm stunned no one has tested the fuel pump for pressure. Wouldn't that be the logical approach?
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Every bike should have one. Mine is permanently mounted.
Test the fuel pump pressure.
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Maybe looking in a completely different direction...
Perhaps a tip to check on the sparkplugs. Are they the right type for using on the FI Varadero? The FI needs Iridium plugs.
You have experienced the smell of fuel, which could indicate an incomplete combustion in one of the cylinders (or perhaps both).